The Writers’ Nook is a place where we, as a group, can provide a safe and positive environment in which to encourage one another and hone our own writing skills.
Constructive Feedback
As its name suggests, constructive feedback is feedback regarding an individual’s performance that can be used to build (construct) successful skills and behaviors. The constructive element is key because with that approach, even giving negative feedback doesn’t become demotivating.
This meeting was held via zoom at 11:00 a.m. on Wednesday, November 10th, Blind Bay Time (aka Vancouver Time). If you would like to join our group, please contact us. Your first meeting is free.
THE CHALLENGE
The Challenge for you to complete before the next meeting is to prepare a writing; a story, poem, or essay; that you are prepared to read aloud. Please submit it early enough so others have time to provide feedback on the writing before the meeting on November 24th. They will provide feedback on your oral delivery at the meeting.
Responses
Conquerers of the Sky by Shirley DeKelver
To Pot or Not to Pot by Dulcie Enns, written from her daughter’s perspective
I’m Sorry by Joyce Adrian Sotski
Crow by Karen Lesli (because she mentioned it)
She Never Left by Karen Lesli (this one is her submission)
Collected Pandemic Efficacies by Kevin Gooden
An Excerpt from The Fifth Commandment by Siv Pettersson
Self-Driving Car Gets Its Own Driver’s License by Kevin Gooden (this one is his submission for reading)
The Shape of Life by Marilyn McAllister
Dad by Marilyn McAllister
Shirley—Overall, I enjoyed “Conquerors of the Sky”—more details on that in a moment. First, I must say the non-fiction confused me, as I was expecting a fictional story.
Your opening is attention-grabbing, through its vocabulary, rich descriptions, and action. Once I realized I was reading non-fiction and “settled in,” I found an interesting progression of facts in bite-sized (but still variable length) paragraphs, all peppered with your superb vocabulary.
Something I don’t know is whether some of my enjoyment was simply because I admire eagles, so I’ve attempted to also cast a critical eye with the following:
The opening begins like a compelling nature show, but the remainder morphs into a more encyclopedia-like presentation of facts. What happened to our original successful hunter? Some of the facts could have been presented through further description, for example the beak could have been described within the context of “our” bird eating its catch, and the talons opening up after our hunter lands, etc., etc.
An alternative might be to return to the hunter in the closing paragraph, as it swoops through the sky with its catch.
Let me know if those comments aren’t making sense for you. Other than that, like I said, I did enjoy the piece.
Thanks, Kevin. I opted to write non-fiction as I tend to forget about this genre. I have a tendency of over-researching what I write and often “morph” into descriptive facts. I wrote this piece a while back, and your suggestions are astute and I will attempt to rewrite my story making it more personal than educational.
Hi Shirley,
You’ve certainly done your homework and research. The reader will be well informed on the many aspects of the eagle. I was not aware of many of your points. After doing research there is the huge temptation to spell out each detail when we discovered a fascinating topic. I don’t what it is about readers who just aren’t quite as enthusiastic as us! 🙂 Geepers. Sometimes compacting the sentences is useful. “The tips of the feathers (‘at the end of the wings’ is not needed because of the rest of your sentence) and separates…
I’ve found using the “find” feature in Word is extremely helpful in preventing me from using any word too frequently. We all have our favs or have works that we have to chew on to prevent overuse. Check out “Its” The word occurs frequently here, which is natural because you are using the possessive of describing the eagle. Suggestion: “with a shrill.” still maintains the force of your picture.
Compacting a sentence without losing valuable info you’ve researched. …”confined to North American continent from northern Alaska to southern California.”
You can ZAP two its: (The beak can be a very intimidating weapon…good word picture) Possibly, “The beak, a very intimidating weapon, has a hook at the tip used for tearing food.”
Your work is a thorough description of the Bald Eagle and your awe is well communicated.
Thanks, Karen. I always welcome your input when providing feedback on my writing. Your suggested changes will tighten the story a little, making it more interesting. I have taken numerous photos of the Bald Eagle and never tire of watching or photographing them.
Hi Dulcie,
I enjoyed the humour in your poem. And the shape. 🙂 We don’t know your mom but can certainly see the problem… I did not know that “Uber” shouldn’t be used as cool. My mother did not smoke pot but I too would have been disconcerted.
Hi Joyce, I know this is long and rambling…
There’s quite a story here! First, I had to look up Whitikow and all its nasty personality traits within the mythology. The creature offers an excellent opportunity for metaphors. Then I worked through each section a bit at a time, and maybe you can help me where I went wrong. There’s a young (it seems) woman, clearly well described in a state of upset, sitting on a curb and her purse is locked in the car. Big Charlie, her boyfriend took off with the keys…I’m not sure why, was he being chased by the wihtikow or afraid she or he had converted? Why then was he mad? Before but not now. Certainly invites the reader to question. But why would he come back when she wasn’t looking? Is there some actual fear? I am guessing that because of her eyes and the mythology she is First Nations.
When he was little, he always ran to his Auntie’s to escape (fear well stated) but mysteriously did not tell anyone. I don’t know why. Did he become the creature so that had to be secret?
Excellent description of chucking the keys, sound effects, and he had her card, but not her purse. Hhm.
When he hitchhiked…now he has done something wrong so definitely the wihtikow is after him, I felt the discomfort and wondered if he’d be caught. The eerie vivid description of the wihtikow here, “almost visible, stretching, elongating, manes flying, flirting with his mind.” Takes the reader into the picture with immediacy.
Flash back to young woman on the curb and a repeat of what she needs to say, and the reader needs to know.
But there is the “I” pronoun that confused me, and I wasn’t sure how socializing with her friends…though it seemed positive it is sort of where you lost me. I can’t figure out where this socializing fits… Sorry, just my brain. She forgot about Charlie, because, but he had her car. And her friend helped her look for Big Charlie….
She slept in the car but had to duck down…whose footsteps (both disconcerting) and then walked all the way back to her car, it would seem, but from where? Where is North Shore? I can’t figure out how this fits in. Dull brain.
Is it the same stranger for phone as at curb? Prince George?
Car door “bending” open, is this just a verb choice or do you mean something else.
The Tow Truck guy who is supposed to be a hero I suspect is not.
There is strong poetic writing here, but I think I need more bridges between your references and metaphors.
When I got to the end and asked “Why, What?”
I wondered if you were writing about the Highway of Tears.
Karen: I appreciate all of your questions but I will wait until others have posted, and maybe until after I have read it aloud to respond.
Shirley, Conquerors of the Sky: The most important aspect of your essay is, I think, all of the research; which you always say you enjoy and I believe it! So interesting and a nice changeup to have a piece of nonfiction to critique.
However, as I read it through I felt as though it was presented in bullet style and I wondered why. Perhaps because the ‘theme’ of each individual paragraph was not obvious, though I realize that the content was categorized into themes. Or perhaps it was because I counted and saw that approximately 1 in every 4 sentences began with the word ‘it’ (It, It is, It will, Its, etc.). This seemed to fragment the paragraphs instead of allowing them to be read each as a cohesive paragraph with its own purpose in mind. I think my suggestion, if you choose to edit it more, might be to look at the subject matter of each individual paragraph and ask yourself, how do I present this? Then try to rewrite it, combining sentences, juxtapositioning thoughts within each paragraph against each other and making each paragraph flow.
But on the whole, it was a delight to read this wonderful information. We all love eagles!
Thanks, Joyce. Many of your suggestions follow Karen’s line of thought. I will definitely look at my submission again and “clean it up” a bit. I had written this piece a while ago, and I can see where I began with a personal edge, then changed over to a more educational curve.
Dulcie, To Pot or Not to Pot: How delightful and funny. Knowing you, I can just see you having a big family get together and all of them teasing you about whether or not you ‘potted.’ I think it’s the first time I have thought about a woman in the prime of her eldership discussing her pottery. Ha ha.
On the more serious side, I think you’ve created a very humourous poem that incorporates not only humour but love of family for one another within the circle. Beautifully done and I cannot think of how to make suggestions for improvement. I think sometimes poetry comes from a place very deep inside that cannot be analyzed, and that is the beauty of it.
Karen, Crow: I am a little confused by your comment, “don’t feel you need to read or comment.” I’m wondering if this is a finished piece so you have no intention of changing anything, or maybe it’s not finished and you don’t want us to mess with your thoughts at this point in the process. Maybe you just want to present this piece orally? Hmmmm…
It’s the kind of piece that begs to be commented upon.
I wasn’t planning on anything for this work. Not reading or receiving feedback because it’s not a fair request. The other attachment I sent you “First portion of She Never Left” or something like that, is my submission.
Shirley, Conquerors of the Sky: Why that title? It’s a great title, poetic and interesting, but I’ve often observed one or two crows dive-bombing a lone eagle, again and again, as it tries to fly across the lake. It’s a sight that refutes the title’s glory, and your essay didn’t really address the title’s claim. Just wondering…
Thanks, Joyce, I wrote the article first, then decided on the title (something I almost never do). I often see Crows, Starlings, even Osprey, dive-bombing juvenile eagles while sitting on our porch and watching our local Bald Eagle family. I could have added more details and elaborated more but I chose to keep it to a smaller word count. Mature Bald Eagles, I feel, fall into the category of “Conqueror of the Sky” because of the power they expel while flying, soaring, and even attacking other birds for carrion or fish.
Dulcie—“To Pot or Not” initially had me laughing. I suppose the idea or theme of a person’s parents always being—and needing to be, in our minds—uncool and somewhat nerdy and off-trend is a bit universal. Your concise writing, often with single-syllable words, moved the piece along quickly, and also emphasized the few longer words, for example the brother being “misguided.”
From reading I’m supposing that the daughter is quite upset. It will be interesting when you read to see if her emotion is something different, which might be possible.
Joyce—“I’m Sorry”—this piece is brilliant, wow. It’s somewhat surreal, with the whitikow’s relentless years-long pursuit of Charlie, but so many well-chosen real life details keep it real, believable, like “a buckle torn” and “a cup of hot tea” and “sent from an iphone.”
Your use of repetitive phrases gives the story a poem-like rhythm as the plot progresses and we learn what happened and why, and even though there’s a current of sadness and tragedy, it seems no one was being malicious, and we are left with a bit of hope, as “the hero…turned and smiled deeply…”.
Fantastic.
Karen—“She Never Left”—What an excellent story—I love it. Superb vocabulary peppered throughout, wonderful words like: “fickle” “rumpled” “wraith” “smoldering” “snickers” “choreograph” “pirouette” to highlight a few.
Also, your phrases sparkle. “…fire, selfish for air, grunts with consumption.” “…colours in decibels…” “Fire burnt farming from her blood.” “Often, words she tasted on her tongue froze there. Speaking would make it real.”
Powerful writing. Regarding plot, I mostly enjoyed it as is. I found her falling into the bushes by the river ALMOST too much given her previous tragedies, and would have been disappointed if she’d perished there. Thankfully you weren’t that cruel, LOL.
Something to consider RE plot. The best endings (so I’ve heard, but have rarely accomplished myself) are those that come as a total surprise, and yet in that surprise seem inevitable to the reader, making them think, “Damn that’s good. I should have seen that coming.” Your story ALMOST achieves that, and I initially—and erroneously—thought you’d done that. What I mean is that for some reason it didn’t really register on me near the end that she was buying butter tarts, and so at the end when she pulled out the butter tarts I thought “YES! Should have seen that coming.” But you actually show the tarts earlier. SO—the surprise value might be enhanced if she is buying something near the end, but the purchase isn’t shown to be butter tarts.
A final aspect of the story that is done well: showing not telling. For example, you don’t explicitly state the daughter in the bedroom, instead building our shock with “She’s in there” and “…follows her out the front door, dragging his horror” and “…small room, small bed.”
And then instead of an explicit statement about dead daughter, you give us “…lay her hand on Agnes’s shoulder and felt the loss echo through her own womb.” Wow.
A tragic tale with dash of hope in the ending. Well done.
Oh…oops, I only meant to submit the first bit…eek… but thank you.
Excellent points to consider. I struggled with the beginning and the ending…. That is a good idea not to say butter tarts at the bakery. She can receive anything in a white box. I also intentionally had three in case there was a question about who was the intended recipient.
I really didn’t expect you to read 2200 words, or something like that, thank you for your extra effort.
I’m certain that you’ve achieved that sort of “Oh!” ending or you wouldn’t have known…
I have had someone comment that this poor woman had one miserable time after another and geez give her a break. 🙂 So, yes, the river crash Almost too much, may echo that comment.
Karen, She Never Left: Here’s my experience: at first read, I enjoyed it all. A good read though I stumbled a few times:
“Then, collapsed onto her walker seat, memories crashed in.” Who collapsed—the sounds collapsed? Agnes collapsed?
“A wraith of grey smoke from below the bedroom door already rakes visibility from the dark.” I struggled and reread it several times, maybe it’s the word ‘already’ that made me stumble, but I needed the next sentence for clarification.
“In the living room she pounds the shoulder of her husband asleep on a couch too short for his body,” I need more punctuation or edits to make this sentence read easily, for me.
From the sentence, “…she a map that would never crease the same, and closed the door.” I wonder why she’s a map. I like it, but I wonder.
When I got to, “Not sure how long she sat in her memories,” I thought, here’s memories again, I must be close to the end. A complete circle but the first memories weren’t emphasized or made important enough for me to remember what they were so I had to go back to check.
This is a full story, full of experiences, stuffed and overflowing with emotions and words! And you make us concentrate to understand all of the implicit thoughts and shadows in the story, I like that.
What point are you at with this section of the story? It feels almost finished. It feels like it needs some more work, editing, thinking. But very nice, well done! Wow, I think this is one heck of a story.
Siv—“The Fifth Commandment”—Your except has a compelling and curiosity-inducing opening. Escape attempt? Disturbing turn? As a reader, I was immediately enticed into the story.
Regarding plot, you do a good job of establishing that Sara is in a dire situation. Something I wondered as reading was what real benefit the forced wedding would have for the quite successful business partners, and this made the entire situation and the forcefulness somewhat unbelievable. Near the end of the excerpt Richards tells Morton he’s a married man and is now expected to work harder. For me it would have worked better if I’d seen this idea/info sooner.
The mother and stepfather characters come across as almost TOO evil, too heartless, bordering on being cardboard characters. I hope that somewhere else in the story there is some explanation of their cruelty, perhaps some inner conflict or maybe at some point one of them (the mother?) changes a bit. Don’t know.
I quite like the last paragraph on page 4, where we learn Sara had become “…blinded…to the strength she did possess.” We readers need to believe that at some point our main character will dig deep and find a way to overcome her situation. This passage hints toward that.
I have to say I’m not a fan of adverbs like “guardedly.” I prefer to read description, i.e. show-not-tell. Below is a quick example of what I mean, and of course you’ll do whatever you want in your story:
“…feeling of dread coming over her.” With slow, silent steps, she edged to the doorway, placed a shaking hand on the frame, and peeked into the room.
Versus
“…feeling of dread coming over her. Guardedly, she peeked into the room.”
Hope that makes sense!
Presumably Sara will eventually be overcoming her adversity and maybe even renewing her faith along the way(?). With some attention to show-not-tell and development of character complexity you’ll have a winner with this piece.
Siv, The Fifth Commandment: Since this is an excerpt only, it’s difficult to critique but here’s my feedback. I recognize all of the hours you’ve spent polishing and editing this novel. It shows by all of the carefully chosen adjectives and adverbs, and attention to detail, almost poetic — however the price you pay for using all of these extra words is that it slows down the pace of the novel.
The wedding scene is shocking in it’s blatant portrayal of womens need for autonomy. From previous conversations, I understand that the whole novel is gripping in its action and intensity. But I don’t think you can successfully achieve both — using a copious number of adverbs and adjectives, and producing a gripping riveting novel. It can’t be successfully done. Often I read beautifully written novels, so descriptive you can see and taste it, but I fall asleep reading it. It lulls me to sleep. Most people prefer to read a page-turner. (We are planning to have a Writers’ Nook meeting on this very topic soon.)
My other comment, and I expect that you have probably already done this throughout the book, would be a word of caution that you ensure each character in your book is well rounded. Some of them seem very evil. Make sure that each and every character in your book also has some elements of good in them. In order to make them feel real, they need to have some redeeming qualities. Nobody is completely evil.
I haven’t read very much of it but I think you have a good story here. The events in this section are certainly interesting though it took a little too long to read through it, to my way of thinking. Always remember you, the writer, are the one who controls the pace at which the reader reads.
You are correct that first couple of paragraphs really need work! What I didn’t explain well enough that all that sound/noise as she entered the market knocked her back into memories. After she was sitting here, in actual flashback for an unsaid amount of time, she began to walk into the market and moved into the steps of realizing she had to let her daughter go.
But that isn’t exactly what it says…
Already rakes… hhm. have to work through on that concept. Yes, there should be a comma after living room, and I’m not sure if after husband.
The map is just a metaphor for traveling, going, being in a place, but really she is just not going to be the same.
Work is still needed. Believe it or not, the story is about 4600, and was once 7000. Actually I think I said to Kevin it was 2200 but it’s more than that.
Sometimes it seems as if, when you edit extra words out, the story becomes more poignant and leaves room for the readers imagination to carry it forward. Enticing, isn’t it?
Hi Kevin-
The first poem begins with joy, continues into love and ends in the return of sorrow, and perhaps the metaphor of tears/rain when sadness sets in. I’m not sure if it makes more sense as “a plummet” or just “plummet.” The poem is accessible to most readers and reflects the situation we all have dealt with, including death. It’s true, we don’t exactly know where tears go. Interesting thought.
In “Still” Part 1 I like how you have shaped the left side…almost like a needle… Is it “I won’t fall down” as in “I’ll keep going even though over-worked” idea, or should it be “It won’t fall down” in that verse about the masks? The poem conveys the sorrow and the constant pain of workers, and I like the metaphor of “new sheets” meaning another death, without specifically saying so. “Phones”…the reference to being locked out of dying loved ones. A spectrum of loss. This offers the story/voice of the medical workers.
Part 2
This portion of your poem is time specific. Decades from know there will be people who don’t understand the “pots and pans”, so relevant now. It’s a poem of gratitude, of recognition. In contrast to the Part 1, “Still do”, your “Still” at the end of Part 2 is a more futuristic comment.
Karen,
RE “a plummet” versus “plummet”… I appreciate you highlighting this. Thinking about it now, I think changing “a plummet” to “plummeting” might be best.
RE “fall down”, it IS “I won’t fall down” as in “I’ll keep going though over-worked.” I’m now wondering if the wording needs a tweak to improve the clarity of that thought.
I’m glad the meaning of “fresh sheets” came through as intended.
Thanks for all your comments.
Hi Siv- You’ve crafted (at least in this excerpt) an emotional story of a young woman with domineering parents who have forced her into an unwanted and loveless marriage with an utterly unattractive and unsuitable man–for their own gain.
I recently paid for some editing and one of their comments (in more than one scene) was to not over-state the emotion, to choose verbs and modifiers carefully and let the reader imagine or choose the intensity of the moment to their own ability. This advice might be helpful for you too. (Free… 🙂 )
Horrified at the prospect of being forced into a marriage with Morton, Sara shrieked in defiance, “You can’t make me marry that idiot, I won’t do it! I won’t! Never!”
This is a highly emotional and important scene. The reader will agree with you…no one wants to marry Morton. When she is shrieking, perhaps she could pound her hand on a table, or sweep a glass, an ornament, pick an item, off the table, “You can’t make me marry that idiot,” (“I won’t, I won’t” can be left out if…) she pounds her fist, “Never.” This may not be entirely in line with the person with a low self-esteem, but it’s an intense moment, so… If you feel “I won’t” is needed, then one would be enough. Sometimes physical action can convey emotion. (Think of actors.)
Her icy stare made it clear that her earlier greeting had only been a ruse. This sentence is full of the reflection of the mother and daughter and the fact that it’s a two against one situation. Well compacted. You may have given a fuller description of the mother in an earlier part of the book. Here she is not very nice pawn in the play.
Her personality is emphasized in the following paragraphs. You could consider compacting some of the bitchy mother’s comments and actions.
Resolutely, she ambled over to her daughter, grabbing her by the wrist. Yanking on it, she ordered, “Get up.” Still weeping, Sara didn’t move. Without another word, Hazel tightened her grip, twisting it so hard that the searing pain forced her to stand up. Next, she grabbed a handful at the neckband of Sara’s sweatshirt, and with a firm grip, steered her towards the doorway. “I want you up in your room. You should be happy instead of blubbering like a stupid baby,” she hissed. “This is extremely important, and we expect you to carry out your obligations to the family without question.”
Cranky as she is, ambling isn’t likely, probably strode, stomped, stamped, trod…something. 😊 There might be a way to simply grab her wrist and twist, immediately, thus forcing a weeping Sara to cry out in pain. “…we expect you to carry out your family obligations.” Your book is going to need a thinking reader, they will know, “without question.” (We have to give them the benefit of the doubt, 😊)
There’s no way out—I’m trapped. It’s possible that you need only one of these.
A section where a character does inner reflection of his or her life is always good reading, as you have done here “Deeply entombed… by her faith.” This is an important point when Sara recognizes some of herself. The reader will be satisfied here.
Then, she saw Morton…. Good to know that he too does not want the marriage, regardless of her positive traits.
Have a peek at the definition of “supremely” and see if that’s what you meant. I’m not sure…you are the writer. The end of the excerpt certainly implies an unhappy couple, and the strength of that communication is clear. Keep at it, we all have to hang in with our re-writes. I’m sure you’ve heard the quote, “I spent all morning putting in the comma and all afternoon taking it out.” 🙂
Hi Anyone
Having just sat here for an hour chewing on 2 or 3 sentences I just can’t seem to get right, I remembered what another (established) writer told me, “If you’ve re-written it over and over and it’s still not right, maybe it isn’t needed. And ah ha, I just nuked a sentence! Much better. Maybe that will help someone else. 🙂 🙂 🙂
Good advice, Karen. If you just can’t make it work, there always the DEL or BKSP keys!
Reminds me of a line from an Al Stewart song:
“Nothing that’s forced can ever be right, if it doesn’t come naturally leave it.”
Karen: Been there done that many times. When I can’t get it right, I keep on writing then return to it later. I remember a workshop I took years gone by where the presenter suggested perhaps it wasn’t needed in the first place and should be deleted.
DULCIE: I can feel the anxiety your daughter felt regarding the idea of her mother potting. Your poetry is always short and thought-provoking and often leaves a message. Well done.
Marilyn—“The Shape of Life”—I quite like the sense and imagery of this piece. Being a fan of fractals, and knowing they are infinite, makes the thought that “truth of form” resides within them simply magical, and is a wonderful lead-in to the rest of the poem.
Something about “exponential rhythm” is also highly appealing to me. If taken literally this would not be a healthy cardiac rhythm to have, of course, but in your piece it gives me more sense of the infinite.
Your word choices in the second paragraph(?) are powerful and they resonate. “…vast crescendo of indigo vibrations…” is excellent. And the end? As a person who quite enjoys techie stuff, theoretical physics, AND the wondrous mysteries of the spiritual world, it’s not often I read anything that checks all those boxes for me at once, but this piece does!
“Dad”—This is a beautiful piece. I love the lead-in imagery and the description of the very down-to-earth (but potentially risky) simple act of crossing a creek being wound together with memories of the father.
I enjoyed the parallel and symbolic imagery of the mare and the foal, and the Dad first lifting the child to safety from the creek and then doing the same taking the Mother to the other side.
Lovely.
Joyce,
This is a haunting piece of writing, haunting not only for its’ content—-the whitikow, and lives in turmoil, but haunting because I had to read it over and over, trying to understand the story. Your use of words is, at times, wonderful. For instance, the way you describe sound: “a sudden rush of startled wings thrashed the air” and the sound of little Charlie running, “huffing and puffing in the dark, little shoes crunching on gravel”. And the way you make us feel the emotion—-little Charlie running in fear, panic even—-the whitikow running alongside. Very effective.We empathize with the ebony eyed young woman, tired, dusty, and sobbing.
The characters arouse interest, I want to know why and how they got to this place. I think I never do quite understand.
Why does the Whitikow follow Charlie from boyhood to manhood? I wonder was he abused? Did he run away from the girl because he felt unloved, neglected, forgotten? Did the young woman lose interest in his well being when the tow truck came and solved her problem?
At times the story seemed disjointed to me. Maybe too much superfluous information. I did not. need to hear about Charlie’s
hitch hike.
Maybe the story was a bit dragged out?
These are just questions that I cannot answer myself Joyce.
I do admire your phraseology, and your way of bringing the characters to life, but feel that I would like to understand their actions better than I do.